Interview: Cida Bento
"I want to be able to talk about myself as a black woman”
June 25, 2009
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| Cida Bento advocates for awareness raising campaign in view of the 2010 censuses round. Photo: Tatiana Lotierzo |
Estimations calculate the number of African-descendants in Latin America to be between 120 and 150 million. These figures are not exact since several countries do not include the color/race/ethnicity variable in their censuses and statistics. The absence of accurate data hinders the knowledge about this population and the elaboration of anti-discrimination policies. In 2010 a new censuses round will be undertaken in several Latin American countries; civil society’s participation in this process is crucial to change this reality.
A recommendation to the States to include, collect, compile, analyze, disseminate and publish reliable statistical data on individuals and groups that suffer racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance is clearly stated in the Durban Plan of Action (2001). The Declaration of Santiago (2008) reinforced the same recommendation in Latin America, issued during the Seminar/Workshop “2010 Censuses and the Inclusion of the Ethnic Approach” (2008), promoted by CELADE/CEPAL; UNICEF; UNFPA e CEA/CEPAL, con el apoyo de OPS, UNIFEM e FI. The declaration reaffirms the importance of disaggregating statistical data by color/race/ethnicity and proposes a two-fold challenge: these data have to be included in the 2010 censuses; and African-descendants themselves have to state their skin color through self-declaration.
Maria Aparecida Silva Bento is social psychologist and executive director of the Research Center on Labour Relationships and Inequalities (CEERT - Centro de Estudos das Relações de Trabalho e Desigualdades), an organization devoted to the study and the actions needed to overcome racism, racial discrimination and all forms of discrimination and intolerance. She is the author of the book Cidadania em Preto e Branco (Citizenship in Black and White) where she illustrates how important statistical data are for broadening our knowledge on African-descendant populations and advocates for a public awareness raising campaign in view of the 2010 censuses round.
How was the issue of statistical data disaggregation addressed in the Durban Review Conference in Geneva, particularly in relation to race and ethnicity?
We achieved to maintain the topic in the discussion, although in the 2001 Durban Conference final outcome document the issue appeared more clearly and strongly. The incorporation of the race/ethnicity data in the census and information system is one of the main demands of the black movement; however, in the Durban Review Conference in Geneva, it practically disappeared due to the Palestine/Israeli conflict. Nonetheless, as the issue is very important to us, we are struggling to make it stronger in our voices and in the outcome documents the Conference will produce.
But, was the issue discussed in Geneva?
Yes, it was. Yet, the issue of racial and ethnic classification bothers some of the groups that argue that this could take us back to Nazi times in which racial classification was the starting point for rights’ violations. Actually, this has not been true for Brazil. In this country, racial classification has existed for over a century: in the Public Security Office’s documents, in adoption documents, the question is clear, “what color are you?”, and you don’t see any groups protesting about this. They protest when ethnic/racial classification is associated to the fight for rights.
What is the importance of including ethnic/racial classification in censuses and other statistical studies?
It helps us to perceive the situation in which the different segments live; the inequalities. It is in that moment when we realize that society is not equal for all. It is in that moment when we see the State is failing as it does not provide equal health services, equal didactic books. If it is indeed failing if democracy is at risk, we see it through the study on the data and we notice that different groups are treated differently.
How has the issue of data disaggregation per race and ethnicity been addressed in Latin America?
In a discontinued manner. Some countries never collect those data. Others, for example Uruguay, use similar categories to Brazil’s, but ask instead about “descent”. Some countries work with the “descent” concept, others with the concept of “color” or “race”. The indigenous issue has been often addressed and this is related to ethnicity – and there are hundreds of them -, all is extremely complex. Yet even the most progressive academics and activists try to avoid the race/ethnicity data. They work on the indigenous issue but not on the African-descendants issue. I felt a lot of reluctance every time I came to this point. In Chile, in Mexico, here in Brazil, it seems people want the issue to disappear.
2010 is an important year as several Latin American countries will undertake censuses. What do you expect from the envisaged research? Will the proposals of the Declaration of Santiago be taken into account?
First, I believe that a common campaign in Latin America is needed in order to help people to understand the importance of the race/ethnicity data and understand that the question about “color” is posed not on account of a racism problem but because through these data the difference in the treatment of the different segments can be noticed. This has to be a campaign that would allow people to participate, engage, discuss. Most surely many issues will emerge from the collected data; furthermore, if civil society participates in the whole process it will be possible to discuss public policies drawing on those data. There is still a lot of time to work until 2010 and the fight cannot cease; we have to keep on pushing; we have to highlight the issue and not let it die.
What is the importance of the color/ethnicity self-declaration in the censuses and other statistical studies?
Some studies undertaken by the UN show that the ideal scenario is for individuals themselves to state their skin color and ethnicity. An ethical problem is posed here. Individuals have to live and undergo certain processes to consider themselves white, yellow, brown, indigenous. Identification is a conquest to each one of us since we live in societies where the racial prototype, the white prototype, is important. All those people who are not white may feel uncomfortable saying what they are because they want to be always taken into account. I think self-identification is a process the individual undergoes until conquering what he or she already is. Yes, I am black; I want to talk about myself as a black woman.
Should self-identification be the criterion for the censuses and other studies?
Most surely it should. Studies in Brazil compare the hetero and self-classification and do not find many differences. When you see that there isn’t much difference between the two of them, you realize that classification is subjective. I think that self-classification transforms data into something more real, accurate, reliable. It is always a starting point to think of public policies since the process starts when you self-classify. By becoming aware of how difficult it is to call oneself black or indigenous, the meaning this has sometimes and how it can (or can’t) orientate policies, you will be aware of the differences and also of the inequalities; this way you can start thinking about public policies. I believe civil society has to follow up and monitor the State very closely when the census is carried out and devise it together, discuss about it and then analyze the policies.
The situation in the Dominican Republic is critical; African-descendants are denied their citizenship by not being able to make clear their situation in the statistical studies. Could you please comment on this and other contexts where the lack of race data contributes to discrimination?
Inequalities like this one is the reason why there is so much resistance to include these data in the censuses. A part of the population that is never in the major urban centers, in airports, that is never seen by those coming from abroad, needs to be recognized and I think the data emerging from the census can be of help. In countries such as the Dominican Republic - experiencing a dramatic situation -, now more than ever the 2010 censuses round needs to be visible so that these issues can surface. Society needs to debate on the impact of the color/race/ethnicity meaning. Today 75% of wars worldwide are based on race/ethnicity issues, on cultural differences. Sometimes the issue is perceived as fragmented and vague by people. The meaning and the impact on daily life has to be discussed since in cases such as this it could be addressed in a better way by making the issue known to the public; this way institutions would be able to act upon it.
Could you please comment on the relevance of the intersectionality between race/ethnicity and gender in the Latin American context?
Whenever we see studies in whatever level –health, work, education- we realize that black women’s situation is dramatic. It is the most punished segment. This situation appears over and over again in every place, but here in Brazil it may be the gravest of all. When race/ethnicity intersects gender, discrimination gets fortified; there is more unemployment and many deficiencies in women’s access to health. Black women pursue schooling faster than black men do but nonetheless they lag way behind the other segments.
In which way could censuses become the theme of school works and education policies? Are they tools for carrying on discussions and activities that allow the issue of discrimination to surface clearly? Do they foster the reeducation of racial relationships?
I think the discussion should pose the concept that there is no race and that racism is an ever present social construction. This discussion should be posed among children, helping them to visualize the different treatment society gives different groups and debate and build a concept of democracy we don’t have in Brazil. Censuses and other studies could be used. We have to adapt them in a way that children would be able to understand them so that they would be able to build another kind of world. In my first book for pre-adolescents, I explain to them the difference between biologically constituted skin and the one socially used to discriminate. Several intellectuals have already done this; therefore, these studies should be taken up to help children to understand whey their hair looks a certain way and why their friends’ looks another way; the same with their skin color, lips, noses. There is no genetic difference. The UN studies undertaken in 1950 aimed to find out if there was any difference among the groups are still valid. That is to say, the genetic differences don’t constitute a problem; social theories do.
Drawing from these reflections, what does being black mean today?
It means to keep on fighting for a democratic society; for democracy and citizenship to make sense. It shouldn’t be this way, but it is still so. Sometimes I speak with people who should support this initiative and I have to remind them constantly that they can’t give beautiful speeches on democracy and citizenship if two thirds of the population are left out of them. Being black is to keep putting forward these matters.
See also:
Classificação racial - rompendo o silêncio (Racial Classification - breaking the silence), article by Mário Rogério da Silva Bento, social scientist and CEERT researcher (in Portuguese)
http://www.ceert.org.br
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